Exorbitant Shipping Fees

UPDATE:

She refuses to refund any of the excess money that she will pocket at my expense.

I want to leave Negative feedback against here on this. Do you think I should or not? Your opinion is very important to me and may effect my decision on this. Thanks

You have 273 positives, no negatives and you haven't left any negatives. The seller has 16 positives and no negatives. Can you handle getting your 1st negative? Perhaps if you had left some negs and had received a few, the seller would have taken you more seriously. Perhaps. On the other hand, if $25 was stated in advance, then so be it. Because of your high number of positives and the seller's low number, others would tend to feel you're opinion is to be respected. But if having a perfect feedback is very important to you, you might want to lick your wounds and move on. I think a near perfect feedback is important for sellers. I don't see how it's that important to buyers, after they've reached 100. It's very stressful to leave/receive your first feedback. Do you want revenge? Do you want to warn other buyers? Do you want respect? Do you want your money back (that ain't going to happen)? Your call.

Comments are always welcomed as long as you agree with me.


"Success is going from failure to failure without lost of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

You have some great thoughts there.

As far as the feedback goes, she already left me positive feedback, so she can not retaliate against me. Also, I don't want to do this because of revenge. If I leave negative feedback, it is because I feel that the Ebay community must be made aware of her warped set of values which somehow justifies her charging an excess $18.00 and putting it in her pocket, unashamedly.

Furthermore, I sent here several emails trying to appeal as kindly as I knew how until it got to the point where it was obvious I was getting nowhere. It was at that point that I gave her the ultimatum that if she didn't at least refund a good portion of that money, then I would post negative feedback. Then I gave her a deadline of 5:00pm today, but she remains stubbornly defiant.

So the worst she can do is to respond to my feedback in her profile, but then I will post a rebuttal and still get the last word (or so it would seem)

Berean01, has it occurred to you that the $25 was not only for postage and packing materials, but also for her time and effort in packaging the (heavy) items? She's entitled to charge for what she thinks her time is worth, and besides, she might have a hernia.

If she hadn't said 25 bucks shipping up front, then you might have a case. But you were willing to pay $25, why do you care where it went so long as the items arrived unharmed? You bid on and bought the item knowing it'd cost you $25 for shipping, so kwitcherbellyachin'. Sorry, you're not justified in posting negative feedback in this old-timer's opinion.

I appreciate you thoughts. I am indeed happy that the items arrived unharmed, but I have to disagree with you in that she does not have the right to charge for her time over and above what is usual and customary. Surly you can not justify in any stretch of the imagination charging someone $18 for handling, can you? Any Mail Boxes Etc. could have done a better job for half the price of what she did -- and they aren't cheap. Besides, she has no right to profit off of a service which she does not provide; namely the shipping.

I could care less if she did have a hernia or only one leg, no car, a starving dog, what have you. Those are not my problems and I should not be expected to pay for them in any regard. I am bidding on auction goods, not her welfare. When you go into any fast-food resturant or department store or grocery store, you don't pay any handling fees of any kind. Those costs are all figured into the final price of each item. If she needed more money for her items, she should have made her opening bid higher. It's not my fault if the market won't support what she thinks the items are worth. She has no right to gouge 'a little extra' out of me by calling it a handling fee. Price gouging is unethical and it stinks!! And that's exactly what she did.

Furthermore, I disagree with you assertion that she has the right to charge for her time. I'm not bidding on her time. I'm bidding on her item. Besides, all she did was to litteraly throw the items in the box, stuff a few dirty, oily newspapers around them, tape the lid shut with two feet of tape, and walk one block to the post office -- total time: ten minutes. For $18.00??? That's damn good wages if you ask me

[This message was edited by berean01 on December 16, 2002 at 10:18 PM.

[This message was edited by berean01 on December 16, 2002 at 10:20 PM.]

Although the seller did quote you $25 up front, a handling fee of $18 is ridiculous and I would definitely demand a refund like you did. If the seller refuses, just leave a neutral and state your reason why. When buyers see this retard's handling fees then they will steer way clear and this moron will realize that his/her business practices won't cut it. Do us all a favor, suck it up, get some balls, and tell the truth. You did the right thing by contacting the seller before jumping to conclusions, but we all know that this seller likes pocketing "handling" fees now. A handling fee of $1 is fine or for heavy items can possibly be stretched to $3 if the packing is bomb proof and mailed out within 48 hrs.

I accidentally overcharged a buyer of mine by $2.50 recently and issued an immediate refund via paypal. I was upset b/c he didn't contact me first before leaving feedback. I also was a little upset since he requested that I send the package to an unconfirmed paypal address which is a big problem since I wasn't protected if somethig happened. I even shipped it out the same day! Ungrateful, but anyways...

I've dished out a ton of negatives and still have zero negatives on my record. You can check it out for yourself. Here's my ID:

http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=speedjunkies

[This message was edited by Rickdogg on December 16, 2002 at 11:20 PM.]

Thanks, everyone for your thoughts and opinions. They were all very helpful.

Rickdog, I took your advice and grabbed for the ankles. lol However, I felt that this issue was serious enough that I decided to leave Negative feedback. Surprisingly, I feel good about it. I have a clear conscience and I'm glad I did it!!

If it had been ten dollars or less, I would have been more inclined to leave neutral feedback or just ignore it altogether. However, this was almost $20. Had she been more understanding and empathetic, I may have been more inclined to downgrade it to Netural. However, her greedy attitude surfaced and she resorted to calling me all kinds of names like "disturbed" and "harrasing" and "slanderous". It's amazing how a little ill-gotten money can distort one's view of others.

At any rate, if anyone wants to see how I handled it, please check out http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=lorifoy

I am still interested in yours and others' opinions. Please let me know what you think. Thanks.

[This message was edited by berean01 on December 17, 2002 at 08:26 AM.]

I agree that the $18 charged is excessive, given the fact that there was no real packing effort done. Based on THAT ALONE, I would leave negative feedback, so that other members might be warned. The fact that positive feedback was already left would be a further advantage, given the fact that many sellers won't leave any feedback until they have already received theirs.

BUT, BUT, BUT, as has been pointed out, the auction listing DID list the $25 shipping charge, which you agreed to pay. Granted, the packing was nowhere near what should have been done, but that is after the fact. Since you did agree to pay the fee in advance and the items did arrive intact, then I would leave neutral feedback and take it on the chin, resolving that next time I saw such a high shipping charge and/or knew that the items should be packaged in a special way, I would confirm these details prior to bidding.

In fact, I do this. I sometimes notice that a comic book or magazine will have $1.97 media mail shipping from one seller, but another lists $5.00 for shipping. When asked, the latter says the 9x12 manila envelope is a buck and the magazine comes wrapped and with a cardboard sheet to keep it flat. With that extra weight and first class shipping, $5 is not unreasonable. At least the second seller wants to be sure the item arrives undamaged. But the point is that I ask in advance when I see high shipping rates posted, or none at all. If the seller does not respond to my inquiry prior to the end of the auction, then I take that as a warning sign and do not bid, no matter HOW MUCH I want the item.

Thanks for your comments!! You make some good points.

I have to admit that I had mixed feelings about this, as well. You are absolutely right in that I did agree to pay the $25 (which I did). However, like I said in one of my earlier entries, I didn't receive anywhere near $25's-worth of packing and handling. And that, to me, is just plain deceptive. It's price gouging.

Your point is well taken that it might have been more advantageous to ask in advance. However, my past experience with that has not yielded positive results. Plus, a lot of the time, I don't find these types of auctions until it's really too late to engage in any conversation with the seller.

And, as I had said earlier, I knew that package would be heavier and would probably need about $25 worth of shipping and handling, so it didn't seem all that unreasonble -- albeit still a bit much. Had I known that I could have gotten by with less than Seven Dollars, I would certainly have made a more concerted effort to try to negotiate that down. However, in hind sight, I know that would have been a fruitless effort.

But the main reason I decided to leave negative feedback, more than anything, was due to the arrogant and deceptive attitude of the seller and the fact that she had no moral problem with the excessive overcharge on this. If she had been gracious and kind to me in her emails, then I would definitly not have left negative feedback. But since she showed me her true colors, I felt that the Ebay Community had a right to know what kind of a person she really was.

Well, berean01, what do you suppose the EBay Community's opinion of *you* is? Negative feedback can cut both ways.

Looks like you had already left negative feedback before Steve's or Rickdogg's first posts.


"A basic principle of education is that you cannot learn anything from someone with whom you agree." - from James Gunn's "Kampus".

yup he/she sure did. Kind of overboard IMO, but it was his/her transaction.

Thanks for all you replies and opinions. Even tho I have already chosen to leave the Negative feedback, I still value your opinions. Hopefully this will be the last time I ever have to do that, but you never know -- so your advice will be helpful for the next time, if there ever is one.

Steve:

You are correct in that feedback, whether positive or otherwise, does go both ways. I didn't do this just for myself, but for the whole Ebay community. But I can't live in fear of what others think of me. In fact, I'm confident that I have nothing to fear. All they have to do is to look at my profile history to form an opinion. I think it speaks for itself.

Rick:

I really liked the quote you left. Very true! Thanks

Rickdogg:

I'm a 'he'. (he he)
Believe me, if you saw some of the nasty emails she sent my way, you would have left negative too.


Great thoughts, everyone. Keep 'em coming!

VAL


"Sometimes people say they want advice, but what they really want is someone to agree with them." - Rick

Berean01, let us know if the seller posts a response to your negative feedback. She's entitled to do that, you know.

Rick, thanks again for the quote. Another good one. Hopefully, I have been looking for more than just mutual agreement. While confirmation is great, it's also beneficial to see the other side, as well, especially when you can't quite see it, yourself. And that's really what I was after. I was looking for legitimate reasons to NOT do it, but so far, the overwhelming majority of comments supported my position.

Steve, as far as retaliation goes, she had already left positive feedback for me. She can't retract it (although, I'm quite sure she wishes she could, now), and she can not post further feedback, so all my bases are covered, there. But that's really a moot point because I would have still left the negative feedback anyway, whether or not she had done so. :

She cannot post further feedback to your record, but she can post a rebuttal of your negative feedback on her own feedback record. That is where you should look.

A suggestion: One should consider the potential consequences of leaving their user ID on a forum when they also leave the user ID of someone they are slamming. There are some people that relish getting others upset, and would enjoy telling this seller what has appeared about them on this forum. eBay feedback is one thing; what has happen here has taken it to a higher level (although AS might get a new member). If the seller was nasty because of the feedback, what would be their response if they knew about this? You can see it happen on eBay's forum. It's not fun. Also, I wonder how much the Andale Counter on this auction has gone up since the above links were posted.

The seller could also leave a "follow-up" on the feedback they left the buyer. Not likely, but they could.


On a visit to England, Gandhi was asked, "What do you think of Western Civilization?" He thought for a moment and replied, "That would be a good idea."

When this happened to me, I left neutral feedback. I was mad at myself because I didn't notice the high charge when I bid. I left the comment, "Item arrived promptly and as described. Extremely high shipping/handling charges. Buyer be aware."

I felt that I had given both an honest comment on the service and an alert to other buyers.

Steve, yes she can post a rebuttal, but then I can also post a reply to the rebuttal. And, yes, I do expect her to do that. So far, she hasn't, which I find quite significant. However, I will be watching for some time to come.

Rick: Firstly, I wish you had communicated what you said in a private email to me instead of posting it in the public forum for all to see. Someone may now be very tempted to take your idea and run with it. Besides, even if I hadn't posted her ID in here, everyone already knows what my ID is and they could easily find hers by tracing it back through mine. Secondly, I am not slamming her. Everything I have said in here is the truth. I have not exagerated nor embellished any detail whatsoever. It was never my intention to slam her but, as I said earlier, to warn other Ebayers about what she did to me.

A warning to anyone who may be tempted to go to her about this -- save your time. I have already told her everything I have said in here, so you won't be telling her anything she doesn't already know.

Lakent: Thanks for your input. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one

berean01 ...
I noticed that you had stated to your seller "I gave her the ultimatum that if she didn't at least refund a good portion of that money, then I would post negative feedback."

That is considered feedback extortion and is a BIG no no.
She could report you to eBay and it may be grounds for feedback removal.
Be careful in the future never to bring the issue of feedback into any dispute with a seller (or buyer).
Best to wait until everything is resolved or obvious that you will not receive satisfaction, then leave factual feedback, without name calling. People will figure out who is in the right.


robert

Why get upset with high shipping charges, as long as they are clearly stated in the listing? I never bid on an item without working out what the total cost including shipping will be, and set my maximum bid based on that. If the charges are not stated clearly I either do not bid, or if it is something I really want, I email the seller and get a number - no number no bid, it's easy. There are many listings which provide no information at all on shipping, this screams AMATEUR to me and I usually ignore them unless, again, it is something I really want.
You have a legitimate complaint if the item is not properly packed and that would be a reason for at worst a neutral feedback with a comment about the poor packing. If a seller keeps getting this sort of feedback they will soon be out of business. In my own listings I make it very clear what the buyer is required to pay, including how to work it out for multiple wins. I do this to speed up the transaction and save myself answering lots of e-mails on shipping costs. It is amazing though how many buyers do not read the listing completely and still email me asking for totals.

No sympathy. And you risk an irate seller (who hasn't already left you feedback) leaving you a neut or a neg.

The issue isn't that I knew what the shipping would be upfront. The issue is that I paid for $25's worth of shipping but only got $6's worth of shipping. She pocked THREE TIMES the price of the actual shipping! I WAS PRICE GOUGED!!!

Robert: As far as the ultimatum is concerned, it was not black mail in any stretch. I, as a very dissatisfied customer, was stating to her, in no uncertain terms, what the consequences would be if she refused to refund some of the exorbitant portion of the shipping service I paid for and never receive. Do you honestly think that she was justified in pocketing and extra $18 of my money??? Her practices were nothing short of decptive and she has no right to get away with that.

And as far as waiting "until everything is resolved or obvious that you will not receive satisfaction", that's exactly what I did do!! I tried every cordial and polite appeal I could think of before this all occured, only to be met by very impolite and rude replies. That, more than anything, led me to go from neutral to negative feedback.


Saltburn: the items were NOT properly packed. Furthermore, she didn't care. Thus, negative feedback. And I still feel good about doing so. It was the right thing to do.


Ron Natalie: You overlooked a lot of the details that have already been clearly stated, before. Not that I need your sympathy or anything, but you might want to go back and read the entire stream, and see if your comment still stands.

Everyone, Thanks!! I appreciate your comments

The following is the text of the feedback:

"Complaint : Actual ship=$6.71 Charged $25 for OLD NEWSPAPERS 4 packing. She POCKETED $18.29!"
"Response by lorifoy - FIXED shipping rate--NON-NEGOTIABLE, NON-REFUNDABLE! BEWARE-Unreasonable buyer"
"Follow-up by berean01 - BEWARE!!! No good/morale person would charge $25 and pocket $18. Price gouging!"


"Ignorance is preferable to error: and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong." - Thomas Jefferson

Rick, what was the purpose of the quote you left from Jefferson? Are you saying that I was wrong?

How about this quote: "Hit me once - shame on you. Hit me twice - shame on me" -Paul Harvey

You may feel you are justified in making any sort of complaint on ebay, but ebay doesn't see it that way. If you leave bad feedback and the seller shows the message where you threaten him with the feedback, they will condider it grounds to delete the feedback.

Here's one for you, berean01:

"There are none so deaf as those who will not listen." -- Confucius

Fellow Ebayers:
This is a rather common topic on eBay. I must admit that I have bid on an item without really reading the S&H fineprint, to find out that the S&H were , well outrageous. Ok, I went through with the sale, licked my wounds and considered myself lucky. I believe that in most instances the feedback speaks more about the person leaving it than the person receiving it. I for one treasure my feedback profile ( 101+ positives, no neutral / no negatives), because it gives the seller/buyer a good look at my "ebay credit report". On the other hand, I also feel the responsibility to leave the appropriate feedback whenever a transaction has gone wrong. So far that means ONE negative and ONE neutral in over 300 eBay transactions. From my perspective, there is very little point in airing an argument on what is "reasonable" if the auction had explicit terms which the buyer later finds them to be "less than reasonable". At the same time, a neutral posting towards a seller with a straight-to-the point explanation really catches my eye, as it shows the maturity of the buyer.

Ok, after all that rambling, here is what I would like to see from eBay: a personal ranking system that I can share with other eBayers without having to publish it at large. It would work like America Online's buddy list, where I can block certain people and allow others to "communicate via auctions". I could share the list of "Buyers I trust" without any explanations, based on my experience with a more granular system than the Positive/Neutral/Negative.

What does the rest of the group think?

Thanks for your time,
Kindest Regards
Jorge

First, welcome to Auction Sniper, Jorge. You'll find a wide range of eBay expertise and opinions in the AS Forum.

I'm a little confused as to what your proposed "Personal Ranking System" would be designed to accomplish, but then I'm not familiar with the AOL buddy system. I do think that allowing millions of eBayers to set up personal systems would drive eBay into bankruptcy buying new computers to hold all that information. Let me ask you in return: What is wrong with the present eBay feedback system that you would wish to change?

The eBay feedback system is conceptually a good idea, but in practice does not work as well as it could. Why? Because everyone is afraid of retaliatory feedback. Either you leave positive or no feedback or you risk retaliation, justified or not. Since fear prevents posting a negative or neutral feedback when one is warranted, this is a system that does not work. My aggregate (from all of my eBay IDs) feedback number is only about 400. I also have one negative, left by a moron in retaliation for a neutral I left him because he knowingly improperly described a lot that I won. Yes, I returned it and got a partial refund (and a credit, as if I would ever buy anything from this jerk again), but he retaliated with a negative. Fortunately, this jerk’s negative feedback comment said more about him than me, but after a couple hundred more positives, the negatives are so far back in the list that nobody ever looks at them, they only look at the numbers.

The sellers, buyers, and eBay could work together to make this a better system, but it would take some effort. The feedback display should be presented by type of feedback: negative, neutral, and then positive. eBay can do that easily. Buyers and sellers should be more honest in their feedback; if you really feel like you’ve been taken to the cleaners, then post a negative. If the transaction left quite a bit to be desired, but came to an acceptable conclusion post a neutral or positive feedback. Otherwise post a positive. The thick skin part comes in when you need to expect a retaliatory feedback in kind. This is where eBay’s help will be valuable, it gives you a quick reference to negative feedback given the other party without having to page though countless pages of positives. When all negatives are grouped together, you can get an overall picture of the person with whom you are dealing. You will find that the negative feedback left often says more about the person leaving it than the person receiving it.

This is quite a digression from the original thread. I’ve had issues with S&H charges myself, but have always “bitten the bullet” when they are clearly stated in the description. When it’s part of the contract it’s pretty lame to complain; just don’t sign the contract in the first place. (That means don’t bid on it). It was ammusing that seller's response seemed to scream "I'm an unreasonable idiot".

Blimey - an emotive topic!

My advice is: Go easy fella! You agreed and paid $25 for P&P and it arrived OK. It's a bit more than the actual postage paid by the sender but you agreed up front and the sender carried out their side of the bargain and your item(s) arrived in one piece.

Count up to ten and move on.


Here's my quotation: -
My dog is worried about the economy because Pedigree Chum is up to 99 pence a can. That's almost £7.00 in dog money.
Apologies to Joe Weinstein

[This message was edited by oli on January 01, 2003 at 04:49 AM.]

Oli, if you had gone back through the whole discussion you'd have learned that the buyer did indeed post negative feedback on a seller who required a non-negotiable $25 shipping fee up front, but only spent $6 or $7 in actual shipping costs. There's some question as to why the buyer went to the trouble of asking for advice *after* he had already posted the negative.

Not to detract from Steve's last comment, which definitely warrants a response: BUT, this topic has 33 replies (mine makes 34). I checked all the other posts. This is the highest. Even counting ebay melt downs, log file filling or "I'm out of here", this gets the gold. This thread has taken on a life of it's own. It may still be active long after we're all dead (An Immortal Topic!). It's probably fair to say that if you haven't serialize this, you're not likely to start at the beginning and read thru all the posts. This is rapidly becoming a Russian novel.


"If all Nature abhors a vacuum, how does a vacuum feel about all Nature?" - Magnus Pym from John le Carre's "A Perfect Spy".

Steve - Re-reading oli's comment, I think oli is agreeing with you? (make it 35)

good job, you did the right thing. If you are primarily a buyer, negative feedback wont hurt you much, at least thats what I think, what seller would refuse to sell you the item when you are willing to pay the most for it?

I think that it is ok for a seller to list flat shipping rate on their auction, and to collect on it, even if they haven't paid exactly that amount to ship it to you.

First of all, the extra fees can pay for shipping materials, their time in packaging it, etc. To post a flat shipping rate that is reasonable beforehand can save time in having to calculate actual shipping charges. I for one do this, and have found the case where sometimes I'll undercharge, as well as overcharge for an auction's shipping.

I'll admit that in this case the shipping was a bit outlandish, but if it is clearly stated on the ad that it is $25 shipping, you need to pay it. If you don't agree with clearly stated auction terms, DON't BID..

And to say that you refund my money or I'll give negative feedback, is feedback extortion. Not good.. I hope you'll think twice about giving negative feedback next time. Good luck and happy bidding!

This thread has become so long now that people are not taking the time to review the original comments I posted when I started this enigma rolling.

THE REAL QUESTION IS THIS:

If you pay a huge amount for shipping/handling (in this case, $25), isn't it reasonable that you should expect to get $25's-worth of shipping and handling?

In case you haven't read the entire thread (which most likely you have not), I'll repeat the relevent information for you here:

1) Actual Shipping was $6.71 -- a difference of $18.29.

2) Seller used only old, dirty newspapers for packing -- nothing else. And, not enough, at that.

3) There were a few loose parts that I had escaped their containers because the lids were not firmly and tightly secured.

In light of these facts, don't you think I had a right to ask for, at least, a partial refund of the excess? Are you absolutely comfortable with her pocketing $18.29 -- a 273% overcharge? If I were a seller, I could not, in good conscience, do this to a buyer even if I did state it up front. I would not be able to sleep at night. There is no way that anyone can call an $18 over-charge reasonable and fair.

Here's a quote that would be good for all of us to remember: "People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the LOVE of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and have pierced themselves with many griefs." I Timothy 6:9-10 NIV

Steve, you misunderstand if you think that I was seeking anyone's advice after I had posted the negative feedback. I had posted my original posting about 24 hours before the feedback was left. (I said, "about" -- maybe more, maybe less - I don't recall, exactly.) I left the feedback when I did because I had given the seller a specific deadline (48 hours) that that was going to be my action if I didn't get a satisfactory response from her by then. She didn't, so I did; true to my word.

Granted, people didn't have a whole lot of time to respond to me, but that couldn't be helped as I had forgotten about this forum and didn't think about posting this issue until I did -- late as it was. However, that certainly hasn't stopped discussion of the issue, by any means.

"And that's a good thing" -Martha Stewart lol