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82 replies

I didn't want to snipe, but...

S studebaker66Member
...he made me!

I've never liked snipers, I have always felt that it was wasn't fair. But I have begun to loose numerous important items to one old letch from my hometown. I complained to him, but it did no good - the Bozo was just smug about it and told me that I might as well just just lie back and get used to it. "Snipping is a fact of eBay, get used to it."

So when it came to a piece of family memorbilia that I found, I decided that I could continue to take the high road, or I could beat the dirty Bastard at his game.

I signed up AuctionSniper, did some homework, placed the AuctionSniper on "armed" and pulled the trigger a planned three seconds after his snipe bid was placed.

I have just received an email from him and he is furious that I out snipped him AND I AM LOVING IT!
The Bozo got a dose of his own medicine . Yeah, I paid more then I would have normally if he wasn't active in the auction, BUT IT IS WORTH IT TO ROB HIM OF THIS WIN! Big Grin

And here is beautiful thing --- Since I've have done my homework on him (his lead times, etc.) I have also figured out his max bid amount. So now I am out to screw him by forcing his max bid on items. Roll Eyes

Like I said, I didn't want to stoop to his level, but its time to teach the old fart a very expensive lesson in the cost of bad behavior...
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bartelbybartelbyMember
I cant figure out whether to welcome you with a big grin or not Razz

Seems you are happy to be here so Big Grin

Seriously - glad you joined the ranks Cool sometimes you just have to do the ole "Cant Beat Em - Join Em".

Cool story about the 2 of you being in the same town n all. I am finding more and more people locally that buy and sell on ebay.

Hope to see you around the foum somemore Big Grin

Lexie
S shirleyMember
Welcome to the "other" side... I'm glad you've joined us, though I have to say that, since I don't see anything wrong with sniping, I wouldn't say you're "stooping"... I hope you'll soon realize that not all snipers are "Bozo's", "Dirty Bastards", "Letches", or "Old Farts" with "Bad Behavior", and that there is no "High Road" or "Stooping" involved in the strategic timing of perfectly legal bids.

As for your "beautiful" strategy to "screw" him... I have to admit, I've been tempted a couple of times to make sure a seller got a REALLY good price, when a certain DeepPockets guy was bidding against me. (I'm going to take the fifth amendment on whether I gave in to that temptation... Wink )

Be careful, though. If your DeepPockets realizes what you're doing, it would be very easy for him to screw you back by either NOT bidding on an item you expect him to snipe (remember, your snipes can't be cancelled in the last two minutes of an auction), or by documenting YOUR bidding pattern and getting you kicked off eBay for Shilling.

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S shirleyMember
Wasn't referring to the first part, but to the end:
quote:
And here is beautiful thing --- Since I've have done my homework on him (his lead times, etc.) I have also figured out his max bid amount. So now I am out to screw him by forcing his max bid on items.

Like I said, I didn't want to stoop to his level, but its time to teach the old fart a very expensive lesson in the cost of bad behavior...


Sounds like his plan for revenge is to bid just UNDER DeepPocket's max, not intending to win but just to make him pay more. That's shilling, the way I understand it, even if studebaker doesn't have any connection to the seller. But like I said, I understand the temptation, and I'm not condemning or condoning. Just wanted to advise caution.

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J jabbergahMember
...shilling was bidding on you OWN listing or on a friends listing to raise the bid price. To bid competitively on an item that has nothing to do with you or a friend, I don't see how that can be considered shilling? Confused Are you guys saying its now unethical to LOSE an auction?!? Confused

I'm with Lexie on this one. Although I AM uncomfortable at the OP implications that sniping is some how unethical or "stooping low". Roll Eyes

Jabbergah                                                    
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J jabbergahMember
Mrs.M posted:
quote:
To shill also means to deceive, lead on,cozen,as well as a decoy who acts as an enthusiastic customer in order to stimulate the participation of others.

So, I guess it is all in how you read it!
OK, exactly HOW can a sniping bidder be leading anyone on or stimulating any participation? A snipe bidder is placing a single bid in the last few moments of an auction. How can it meet ANY of those definitions delineated above?? Confused

Jabbergah                                                    
puppyraiserpuppyraiserMember
No one asked me, but here is my 2 cents anyway. Smile

Bidding with the intention of not winning is shill bidding.

I'm not sure of SB66s intent, but unless 'old fart' is a nuke sniper, you can't shill bid at the last second. Unless they are bidding on the same item auction after auction, how does he know what someone elses max is? If 'old fart' is a sniper, how do they even know which item is going to be bid on.

I don't think SB66 knows as much as they think they do, and that 'cost of bad behavior' might be droped in his/her own lap. Careful, it could be an expensive lesson.



[This message was edited by Puppy Raiser on February 13, 2004 at 05:19 PM.]
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J jabbergahMember
...ebay says:
quote:
What is shill bidding?
Shill bidding is the deliberate placing of bids to artificially raise the price of an item and is not allowed. To avoid the appearance of being involved in this activity, certain people should avoid bidding on each other's items: for example, individuals living together, working together, or sharing a computer, or family members.
With that definition, what the OP is engaging in DOES NOT in my mind constitute shill bidding. Shill bidding implies direct collusion or at LEAST some type of relationship (family, friend, colleague) between the seller and shill bidder. What the OP apparently describes is a strategy that is maybe mean, but not shill.

That is not to say that I think it is a GOOD strategy. It is only a matter of time before someone engaging in such practices will end up winning something they really don't want and quite probably at a premium price. Thus an appropriate "reward" for such behaviour. Seems dumb, but not a "shill".

Jabbergah                                                    
S shirleyMember
Jab, in most cases I think you're right, but the "Definition" part of your ebay quote is:

quote:
Shill bidding is the deliberate placing of bids to artificially raise the price of an item


In other words (Studebaker's words, in fact) "to screw him by forcing his max bid on items."

The rest of the ebay paragraph is just a suggestion on how you might avoid the *appearance* of shilling. And, of course, the fact that shilling is not allowed.

If Studebaker does this more than a few times, and it becomes fairly obvious what he's doing, I don't think "But I don't even KNOW the seller" would be much of a defense.

On the other hand, I'm still not sure how Studebaker is going to know in advance which items DeepPockets will be sniping. Unless he just snipes them all? And I certainly hope that Studebaker will make good on all the items he "accidentally" wins when DeepPocket figures out what he's doing...

I think it's going to be "a very expensive lesson in the cost of bad behavior... " for both sides!

S shirleyMember
On the other hand, there was this particular cactus plant I wanted to get, but every time it came up for auction (which was NOT very often) I always lost to the same bidder.

I contacted one of the sellers directly to see if he would sell one off-ebay to me (which he did NOT), and he mentioned that my DeepPockets competition was a doctor and a dedicated collector, and that I "probably couldn't outbid him if I tried".

So I tried. And he was right. No matter how high I went, Dr. DeepPockets always came back and outbid me.

I tell myself I wasn't really shilling, because I really DID want the item, and I always knew that I might "accidentally" win one for more than I normally would have paid, but I never bid more than I could afford. But I have to admit, frustrating as it was to constantly lose the auctions, at least I got the satisfaction of knowing that he paid more than he would have if I HADN'T been bidding.

And anybody care to guess how I finally beat him? That was my first-ever manual 2-second snipe!

J jabbergahMember
Shirley posted:
quote:
No matter how high I went, Dr. DeepPockets always came back and outbid me.

I tell myself I wasn't really shilling, because I really DID want the item, and I always knew that I might "accidentally" win one for more than I normally would have paid, but I never bid more than I could afford. But I have to admit, frustrating as it was to constantly lose the auctions, at least I got the satisfaction of knowing that he paid more than he would have if I HADN'T been bidding.

So lets say ebay sends you an e-mail that says, "Ebay member Dr.DeepPockets has accused you of shill bidding." What is your defense or do you believe you are guilty as charged? If so, what should the punishment be?

Jabbergah                                                    
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J jabbergahMember
...you believe the OP is shill bidding and Shirley is not? Even though their actual auction behavior is identical?!? Confused So then I guess you would think some type of disciplinary action should be taken against OP, but NOT against Shirley?!?! Confused

CALLING ALL THOUGHT POLICE, "1984" IS BACK!

You're just rattling my chain, aren't you?... Razz

Jabbergah                                                    
puppyraiserpuppyraiserMember
quote:
...you believe the OP is shill bidding and Shirley is not?
Didn't say that. I said I wasn't sure of the OPs intention. (or Shirleys for that matter)
That's why a 'pattern of behavior' has to be established.
quote:
You're just rattling my chain, aren't you?
Uhhh.... sorry, Nope.

Sounds like we may have to agree to dissagree. Might be interesting to ask eBay and get it right from the horses mouth. Wink



[This message was edited by Puppy Raiser on February 14, 2004 at 02:41 PM.]
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puppyraiserpuppyraiserMember
I've sent this to eBay, and will 'chime in' if and when I get an answer.

A discussion on shill bidding has come up on a forum. We’re at an impasse, so thought we would get the answer directly from you.

2 bidders who are not friends bid on auctions. Bidder 1 knows they probably will not win, but want the item and place a bid. Bidder 2 does not want the item, but places a bid only to drive the price up.

The seller, and bidders have never met, or communicated in any way, except to bid.

Question: Is bidder 2 a shill bidder?

J jabbergahMember
...wish you had included the caveat that bidder #2 WILL COMPLETE the transaction if his bid ends up being the winning bid.

And even if ebay comes back & says bidder #2 IS a shill bidder, I'll STILL disagree!!! Roll Eyes

INTENTIONS don't mean a dang thing, actions do! Say bidder #1 WANTS to win the item and snipes the max they are willing to pay (isn't that what we are always saying?!?), they win, pay, and complete the transaction.

Say Bidder #2 doesn't like Bidder#1 and wants to bid $1 less than Bidder #1's max, just to run up the price on Bidder#1. So #2 studies #1 sniping habits, the items he tends to bid on, and generally how much the winning bids are (NOTE: Generally ONLY the winning bids would be known, NOT Bidder#1's MAX bid. It could only be guessed.). So then Bidder#2 begins sniping items he GUESSES Bidder#1 will be sniping at bids he GUESSES will be just a little less than what Bidder#1 will snipe. If he is successful, then he's really mean, stupid, and really needs to get a life. BUT, if he miscalculates and wins, he pays and completes the transaction. So as an "auction winner", he doesn't look any different to the seller than Bidder#1 REGARDLESS of his intentions! THAT IS NOT A SHILL BIDDER!

NOW if Bidder #2 somehow HAD ACCESS to Bidder#1's computer and thereby could determine EXACTLY what #1's snipes were, that could probably be considered some type of FRAUD, but I would STILL maintain even THAT is not shill bidding!

Shill bidder example #1. Easiest to understand. Two ebay ID's, same person. Item listed under one ID, 2nd ID bids on it to push up price. If by some miscalculation the shill bid wins, there's NO transaction actually completed, although ebay fees will be paid and maybe even "FB" exchanged! If the seller can't 2nd chance offer the item to the patsy that was bidding against the shill bidder, then the item is relisted by the "winning" shill bidder and the process starts over.

Shill bidder example #2. Two ebay ID's that ACTUALLY ARE 2 separate individuals, but they are working in collusion -- friends, colleagues, etc. The scam process is exactly the same as in example #1. Bottomline: NO REAL SALES TRANSACTION ACTUALLY TAKES PLACE if shill bidder inadvertently wins!

To say a winning bidder that will actually complete the auction transaction can be a shill bidder is ridiculous. That means EVERY bid war must have at least one "shill" bidder. Does that mean every losing bidder is a shill?! If not, why not?

Jabbergah                                                    
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puppyraiserpuppyraiserMember
quote:
And even if ebay comes back & says bidder #2 IS a shill bidder, I'll STILL disagree!!!
Lol... If you won't change your view because of what their answer is, there is nothing >I< can say to change you mind. Big Grin

I thought it was eBays definition we were talking about, which is:
quote:
What is shill bidding?
Shill bidding is the deliberate placing of bids to artificially raise the price of an item and is not allowed.
I see nothing that says it has to be a conspirisy, or working in collusion. I admit, this is most often the case, but do NOT think it is a requirement.

Please present your wording to eBay. It would be VERY interesting if we got different answers! Eek

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J jabbergahMember
...ebay definition better:
quote:
Shill bidding is the deliberate use of secondary registrations, aliases, family members, friends, or associates to artificially drive up the bid price of an item. (This is also known as "bid padding.")

Shill bidding is strictly forbidden on eBay. eBay members found shill bidding may receive warnings or indefinite suspensions of their accounts.

I noticed Puppy did not include a portion of that other ebay definition that I think completes it:
quote:
What is shill bidding?
Shill bidding is the deliberate placing of bids to artificially raise the price of an item and is not allowed. To avoid the appearance of being involved in this activity, family members, friends, and individuals living together, working together or sharing a computer should not bid on each other's items.

Summary:
SHILL bidder = bidding to artificially raise item price for eventual winner. Shill MUST either be seller OR be in collusion w/seller OR have some sort of relationship w/seller.

MEAN bidder = bidding to artificially raise item price for eventual winner. NO COLLUSION OR RELATIONSHIP w/seller AND will complete transaction if ends up w/winning bid.

Jabbergah                                                    
J jabbergahMember
...said, agreed.
Puppy posted:
quote:
Did you send a question to eBay about this? What was your wording?
Will await an answer to yours first.
quote:
We are, apparently, not going to change each others view on this, so I agree to disagree.

Well, OK Puppy, it's OK for you to be WRONG on this issue. We'll forgive you! Razz You still are the undisputed Bid Analysis Worksheet King! Wink

Jabbergah                                                    
S shirleyMember
quote:
Originally posted by Jabbergah:
Shirley posted:
quote:
On the other hand, there was this particular....

If we let Shirley argue BOTH sides, we ALL can sit back and watch! Wink Razz



LOL!

Oh, jabber, don't get me started. I have to try REALLY REALLY hard not to play devil's advocate sometimes... My dad used to say my brother and I would "argue just for the sake of arguing" and he was right! We called it "debate". My brother is now an attorney -- I take credit for his skills!

In this case, my original post was intended to say "I know where you're coming from, but watch out!" By a strict definition, I think what both of us did could be called "shilling". In my own case (the only one I can answer for) it wasn't really done out of spite. More like "If you're going to insist on outbidding me, I'm going to make sure you pay a fair price."

I honestly DID want to win the plant, and never bid so high that I would have regretted winning. Several times, I actually DID outbid Dr. DeepPockets, and that was fine, but I always knew he would come back before the end of the auction.

And if eBay security came knocking on my door, they'd see two bookcases full of cacti growing under lights in my living room, and shake their heads and do this: Roll Eyes

Then they would go away.

Razz

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