P & P

Welcome to our forum!
The seller would not let you pick up the item probably for two reasons. One, he is not protected by Ebay if he does this and two, you could be a mass murder or a robber or...! Of course you are not,but this is not a safe world we live in.
Postage and handling are up to the seller.I saw something a couple of days ago that had a BIN OF $45.00 and postage and handling of $22.00. It weighed less than 2#. As a buyer, you just need to look at these things and decide if you want to deal with a seller that overcharges. On the otherhand, remember that there is more to shipping than postage. I ship a certain thing in a bubble envelope that cost me, in bulk, close to a dollar. And then, of course, a person may have to travel a bit to the post office. You just need to weigh all of this out before you bid and decide if what you will be charged is fair.

Personally, if a seller is up front about their charges for shipping/postage and you are prepared to pay it at that stage, I don't think you can complain if the actual cost is apparently a lot lower when you receive the item.

No-one's forcing you to buy.

GG

Hi Gardengnome.

Got to disagree with you on a couple of points.

If a seller says p & p is £5 then I expect to receive the item with stamps/delivery/packaging on it near to that value/standard especially as other sellers of similar items (in my case cd's) can do their p & P for less than £1, if the goods do not arrive with the stamps/delivery/packaging to that value/standard then why say p & p is £5 because it obviously has not cost them £5. The only reason why they are charging more than the cost is that they are ripping you off, this is further highlighted by the seller who would not let me pick the item up from his retail shop, a shop mind you not his personal address, a few miles from me.

In both cases I quote in my original posting the seller/s have not had the decency to reply to any of my queries, not even to say "no, p & p is as advertised" and in one case I cannot even pay them as the emails I have sent them have bounced back as undeliverable, so I don't even know where to send the money to.

ebay's "final value fee" is based on the winning bid, not bid + postage. A seller can make more money by inflating postage and settling for a lower winning bid. For example:

$40 (winning bid) + $10 (postage) = $50
$10 (winning bid) + $40 (postage) = $50

The buyer pays $50 either way, but the seller would prefer the second instance. And if the seller happens to get a high bid price + high postage, they've really done well.

Okay so here's an instance where I feel the buyer is deliberately ripping off the buyer ( me) probably because he's disappointed the item didn't make more. P&P quoted as £6.55 by Parcelforce 24 (presumably a 24 hour delivery srvice run by that co.) P&P paid in full and it got sent by standard mail for £4 odd (a slower and cheaper delivery service).

This is NOT an isolated instance and is worthy, in my view, of neg feedback.

As a possible approach to high P&P quoters I have successfully approached some prior to bidding and suggested alternative lower priced options and agreed same (often with some handling charge included).

GG, I do agree with you. The time to ask any questions about shipping is before bidding, not after. And certainly not after winning! I think the question is not if the seller is ripping you off, but when to clarify the situation and decide whether to bid or pass.

If the shipping fee is listed in the auction and one considers it excessive, one has the option to skip that auction. If the shipping fee is not listed, one has the option to inquire before bidding. If one passes on these two options, then I feel that one should not complain. I realize that some sellers are trying to make money on the shipping, but it is the buyer's choice whether or not to proceed. Caveat emptor.

I also see nothing wrong with preferring that an eBay customer not come to my shop.

M said:

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The time to ask any questions about shipping is before bidding, not after. And certainly not after winning!

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That's how I would approach it. Less surprises, and maybe less problems.

Here (Australia) our oncosts are classed as P & H H = Handling.

I am going to back GG and Mrs M on this one, if the P&H was quoted up front, and you agreed to pay it (when you placed a bid), there's no point complaining.

Personally, if I see the P&H as excessive, I will email and see if I get a breakdown of the costs. I have no problem a seller charging a couple of dollars handling charge...so long as it is stated up front!. Its the ones that dont list a P&H, then charge you like a wounded bull to make up for their ending price shortfall, that irritate me.

Mind you, I only got stung like that once, now I will email if there is no quote and get one before I bid.

An eBay seller, like any other retailer, has the right to charge you what he likes, its up to you whether you decide to purchase the item.

The only time you can complain, is in the example that cartman gave, thats against eBay's policy of fee avoidance.

If you bought from a retailer for $3.00 more than the shop around the corner - its not the retailer's fault, but your own for deciding to purchase it from them without doing your homework

The more expensive retailer might have more overheads to cover, as your seller, may have to travel 40kms to post your item and rather than having a high start price, they opt to charge you a handling fee.

Soap Box Ramble is now complete.

Hi Mrs. M.

Yes, you understood my point. I was really taken to the cleaners by a seller some time ago, and I did all the right things trying to discuss it with them, all to no avail.

In the end I put it down to experience because I didn't check before I put in my bid.

GG

I agree with what most of the others have said. The cost of shipping really needs to be checked out before bidding. If there isn't time to find out before the auction ends, it's usually better to wait for another auction. Sooner or later, there'll be another one like it on eBay.

I'd be wary about leaving a negative for excessive shipping charges, especially if it's only a few dollars. I'd just add their user ID to my list of people that I don't want to deal with again. Giving someone a negative usually results in retalitory feedback.

I don't see anything immoral in a seller asking for more p+h than the item justifies, again, as long as it's stated up-front. We don't usually require to see a shopkeepers overheads before buying something from him to be sure we're not being over-charged. We either pay the asking price or go somewhere else.

While I don't condone over-charging on p+h, it's not illegal and in the long run the seller will only harm themselves, reducing bids on their stuff and therefore overall income.

It's just one of the curses of a 'free' market.

GG

Agrre with most of the above, but what are your views about a seller who quotes for a premium shipping service which is accepted by the buyer and then ships by a different service to save money. Here the service is agreed and the fees may well include 'handling' anyway - so this does smack of misrepresentation to me.

As an extreme example, imagine someone intentionally shipping by surface mail after agreeing to and charging for Airmail.

Not such an extreme example, I've had it happen to me. Problem was, by the time the thing arrived (3 months!!!), it was too late to do anything.

Behaviour such as you suggest is outright fraud in my book and equivalent to misrepresenting the item.

GG

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As an extreme example, imagine someone intentionally shipping by surface mail after agreeing to and charging for Airmail.

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Again, I agree with GG. This certainly would be a misrepresented situation. At the least, I would let him know how I feel and put him on a list to never buy from again!

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Originally posted by Feedingseagulls:
Agrre with most of the above, but what are your views about a seller who quotes for a premium shipping service which is accepted by the buyer and then ships by a different service to save money. Here the service is agreed and the fees may well include 'handling' anyway - so this does smack of misrepresentation to me.

As an extreme example, imagine someone intentionally shipping by surface mail after agreeing to and charging for Airmail.

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Did this actually happen to you?

A lot would have to do with the amount of money involved and my mood. For small sums, I tend not to get into “it’s the principle of the thing” crusades. I’ll probably just add them to my ”avoid” list. Even on larger amounts, my mood will probably prevent me from getting concerned (especially after a massage). Am I willing to send a bunch of emails to someone to try to get back $5 in shipping? I might send one, but call me a wimp; I would rather do things that I enjoy (beating on a reluctant or crooked seller isn’t one of them). If it was say $50 extra shipping, then maybe I would stick with it, but the more the amount the harder it might be to collect. Even on small amounts, and even after the seller says they’ll refund, there’s that day or so of anxiety over whether the refund will come thru. And, it’s not likely this seller only pulled this “stunt” on me – they’ve probably done it before, so they probably have developed thick skins to the “it’s the principle of the thing” buyers. Mostly, I’d rather cut my loses and move on. There are usually enough people around to rag on the seller (any seller) that I figure sooner or later someone else will do the job, if the job can be done. I know – I know. I’m not being a responsible “citizen” by being such a wimp. But, then why are so many people so concerned about leaving negative feedbacks? Call me apathetic – but apathetic people tend not to start fights.

Don't think it will ever happen, but eBay needs a 'Block Seller' list.

Yes, it's possible to not show certain sellers in a search, but you must enter them manually for each new search through the advanced options. eBay could and should do a much better job.

Rick;

I concur with your comments and I certainly wouldn't bother raising a fuss over a few dollars. It's not a matter of "wimping out" at all, just common sense. The amount doesn't justify the angst and it's not worth giving (or getting) a neg for.

On the other hand, when the seller charges $US73.00 and actually pays $US35.00 for postage, I take exception in a big way. This is what happened to me. I was a little more naive then.

More recently I bought two items from a seller in Ukraine - risky, I know, but they were cheap and his record was good. I paid airmail and was assured delivery within two weeks. After two months I started getting a bit toey about it and began to query him re non-delivery. At first he was apologetic and promised to follow it up, but as time went on he became defensive and unco-operative. On the 90th day I left him a neg.

Six days later the packet turned up, badly crushed but fortunately the goods were undamaged. I can't read cyrillic script but even I could see there was nothing on the packet about airmail.

I felt bad about the neg, but then, reconsidering, he had done the wrong thing by me, intentionally or otherwise, so I still think it was deserved.

He didn't respond to it so maybe he agreed.

I have finally cracked my 100 feedback points, so now a neg will knock me back less than 1%, time to consider whether to play the game in future!

GG

Hi to you all, I read all of your comments with interest, I think it is a bit of a hornets nest on some auctions and not worth the bother on some, but I still say a seller should only charge to the buyer actual (or as near as) p & p charges and not make a profit on p & p, profits should be on the item sold, I have no problem with that.

I try to keep shipping to a minimum, and (I think) for good reason.

You might be amazed how many will bid an extra $10 to save $2 on shipping. I've found once an auction is bid on while the price is still low (time invested) they are more likely to return, rather than look elsewhere. I'm guessing this is also true if the auction is added to a watch list for a snipe.

Puppy, I do too. I charge pretty much what it cost to ship and package. I am sure I get bids many times because, as you said, my shipping is less than the other auctions selling the same thing.

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I felt bad about the neg, but then, reconsidering, he had done the wrong thing by me, intentionally or otherwise, so I still think it was deserved.

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Times sure are a changing. Instead of worrying about dropping a nuke on an Ukrainian, I can now drop a neg on them.

P.S. Liked Luftwagen

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I've found once an auction is bid on while the price is still low (time invested) they are more likely to return, rather than look elsewhere.

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What goes around, comes around. Good ebay Karma.

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P.S. Liked Luftwagen

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Thank you Rick, took me a week to think that one up! I was on the point of suggesting an electrically powered airship would be called a Zappelin (ouch!).

A broken down electric car is of course, a 'Static', (OK, OK....I'm going....).

I recently sold four items through eBay UK. These were small and very light plastic pieces but I wanted to pack them carefully. I quoted a flat rate of £3 for airmail post (all but one went to the UK) and this turned out to be a little short of the actual postage. I didn't mind because I did quite well on them.

I posted the last one a week after the others and, learning from experience, kept the package to a thickness of less than 20mm, postage therefore costing me less than £1.

The buyer has received it and is very pleased and hasn't raised the issue of the other £2. I didn't set out to maximise my return but I felt a little guilty about it.

I clearly stated the postage 'up-front' so, morally, I have no qualms, but would you refund it and incur possible fees, or just let it ride?

GG

GG, I have done the same before. I guess this has to be your own personal decision, but I would probably adjust the postage if it were a lot and let it ride if it were a little. I try to judge such situations as I would like someone to do for me! I am not sure what you mean by possible fees. There are no fees for paypal money transfer, but perhaps you are not speaking of paypal. Certainly, if it is going to cost you to refund a little, don't, but if it is a lot, maybe deduct the fee and simply say that you slightly overstated the postage and want to refund some money to them.

Hi Mrs. M. - didn't think you'd still be up.

Yes, that's about how I see it. You're right of course, Paypal wouldn't incur a fee, but I assume Bidpay and smilar would.

I suppose the situation could also be complicated by one's perception of just how much £2 is. To a collector it might be a drop in the bucket, but to a street kid it'd be a decent meal, eh?

GG

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I clearly stated the postage 'up-front' so, morally, I have no qualms, but would you refund it and incur possible fees, or just let it ride?

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Never having been a seller, not sure what I would do. Me, personally, as a buyer, wouldn’t even notice. It wouldn’t any impact my feedback to the seller.

I have had a few sellers point this out. It wasn’t worth the Paypal fees to make a refund, so they suggested giving me a discount on the next item. That was fine by me.

The “I clearly stated” for me is the Golden Rule.

'ang on, it's me that's 'still up' isn't it? You must be an early riser.

GG

GG, it is 8:09 AM here! Yes, you are right about what is a lot...use your judgement!!

I must admit that I pay nothing for packing materials, working for a small firm in the capacities of storeman, forklift driver, graphics designer, production manager, packer and general dogsbody (all of them underpaid)has meant easy access to bubble-wrap, tape, boxes, strapping etc, etc. I suppose I can be generous (with the bosses help).

I'll have to up my prices for P+H if I ever leave though.

G'nite (or Top o' the Marning to yer);

GG

I have seen some hefty handling charges from mail order firms. Perhaps the mail order company isn’t making a profit on the handling charges, in that their handlers are getting paid more than brain surgeons. These handlers may have a Doctorate in Hands. Maybe they graduated Summa cum hande.