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90 replies

Anti-Snipe Auctioneers

rickrickMember
quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
until I figured out that I was losing money by getting into bidding wars.


AH YES! But that's why we snipe.

P.S. Can anyone cite a source that says that this seller is breaking an ebay rule? This comes up from time to time. ebay doesn't seem to have a problem with the seller including this "restriction" in their listing?
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S steveExpertSniper
Quoting Rick:

"P.S. Can anyone cite a source that says that this seller is breaking an ebay rule? This comes up from time to time. ebay doesn't seem to have a problem with the seller including this "restriction" in their listing?"

I'll check, but I think the eBay rule being broken would be the refusal to deliver the product to a legitimate winning bidder. But sellers often threaten to do things they don't follow through on. As an example, "charleybaby," a very combative individual, vows to post negative feedback for any bidder who uses snipe software in his auctions. However, a check of the negatives he's handed out, 38 in all, none were for that reason, even though I found two winning bids placed by new participants in the last minute or less in his closed auctions (I didn't check them all).

I agree with Rick that it's best just to avoid such confrontational (and irrational) sellers. There's no use deliberately provoking a fight. Razz
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rickrickMember
quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
That clause can't mean each and every condition set by the seller, no matter what.


I don't make the news - just report it.

Can anyone find a qualified source that says this seller is obligated to complete the transaction if someone bids in the last 5 minutes of the auction?

It appears the seller can elect not to sell to a sniper, if he includes such in his listing. Whether he does or not, is his choice.

I think as snipers we would like to "believe" this seller is breaking ebay's rules. But based on my research, this falls under the category of "urban legend". I would like to find out differently, but until someone can cite an authoritative source, this should only be viewed as "wishful thinking".
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rickrickMember
quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
I'll check.


I don't expect Steve to be the only one to check on this, or even that he has to. But, I would definitely like to have a factual answer, with some supporting documentation (if possible).

I'm using the term "factual" as a generic term. "Of or relating to facts"
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S steveExpertSniper
What you've cited seems to conflict with eBay's written policy on "non-selling sellers":

"It is not permitted for a seller on eBay to refuse payment or delivery of an item at the end of a successful sale.

If you have sent payment and have been unable to receive your item or a refund, please refer to the eBay Buyer Protection Program for information on how to proceed. On this page you will also find instructions that will allow you to report the seller.

If a seller has refused to complete a sale and payment has not been sent or payment has been refunded, report the seller . Make sure to include a copy of the email documenting the seller's refusal to complete the sale with the full message text and complete email headers when making your report.

After receiving your report, eBay will consider the circumstances of the alleged offense. Disciplinary action may result in a formal warning, a temporary suspension, or an indefinite suspension. If a complaint cannot be proven with certainty, it is possible that no action will be taken. Due to privacy issues, eBay will be unable to discuss the result of the investigation."

Look, this is becoming like discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. We can go 'round and 'round and without a definitive and specific answer from eBay we can be at it until Doomsday. Now, I feel that there's agreement on the sniper policy to avoid such sellers. If anybody wants to try to get a written clarification of this specific issue from eBay, he or she is welcome to try. Personally, I wouldn't know where to begin and the issue isn't all that important to me. Razz
rickrickMember
quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
I agree with Rick that it's best just to avoid such confrontational (and irrational) sellers. There's no use deliberately provoking a fight.


Well, we agree on this.

Although Steve, and perhaps some others, may feel think this isn't important, I would still invite anyone else to solve this riddle for me. Not being a lawyer, I'm not sure whether my quotes or Steve's quote takes precedent.
S steveExpertSniper
I'm not an attorney myself. I have no idea which statements take priority over the others, and suggest that eBay is blissfully unaware of this dichotomy as it applies to snipers and those who abominate them. Perhaps when I have some spare time I'll take up the cudgels with eBay and -- of course -- will share any results with my friends on the AS Forum. Wink
rickrickMember
quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
Perhaps when I have some spare time I'll take up the cudgels with eBay ...


Thanks, but no need to. I followed your suggestion from your previous post and sent the following email to ebay:

1) This appears in a seller's listing: "If I determine that a winning bidder has used sniping software, they will be placed on my blocked bidders list and will receive negative feedback." Is this a violation of ebay's rules?

2) Would a seller be in violation of ebay rules if they state that they will not complete the transaction if the high bidder placed their bid within the last 5 minutes of the auction?

I'll post their reply.
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C chatterMember
quote:

_1) This appears in a seller's listing: "If I determine that a winning bidder has used sniping software, they will be placed on my blocked bidders list and will receive negative feedback." Is this a violation of ebay's rules?

2) Would a seller be in violation of ebay rules if they state that they will not complete the transaction if the high bidder placed their bid within the last 5 minutes of the auction?_

I'll post their reply.


I still wonder about how such "determination" is made. Is it solely the "five minute rule"? If so, that would seem to negate MANY eBay auctions, especially with eBay flashing the message on the screen during the last 15 minutes or so:


Important: This item ends soon. Since bids are often submitted in the final minutes, refresh or reload your browser to see if you've been outbid

We previously determined that this message appears on the auction screen of the high bidder, during the final minutes. Based on the supposed five-minute rule, the high bidder, having previously bid, would be eligible to post a last-second bid. But I wonder if any message appears on the screen to other bidders, i.e., the ones who had bid but are no longer the high bidder? Does eBay encourage them to bid again at the last minute, as it does the high bidder?

The point here is not that the five-minute criteria would eliminate either category; naturally it would not. But these messages from eBay DO encourage last-minute activity, and it would seem that such a flurry would make it interesting to this discussion.
S steveExpertSniper
Chatter, I suspect that these sellers use two criteria to "decide" that snipeware was involved:

1. The bid was placed in the last 10 or 15 seconds of the auction. Since everybody knows it's not humanly possible to place a manual bid that close to the end of an auction, snipe software must have been used.

2. The bidder had not bid on the item previously.
B basrahMember
I did a search for sniping on Ebay.com and got this little quote (amongst others) :-
quote:
Generally, I prefer to put items up without reserve and open them well under the money. I don't like reserves & I don't think you do either. But, no reserve leaves me pretty vulnerable to last minute sniping. I've been known to give an auction about 48 hours & if I don't perceive any interest -- I'll close it down, just like real auction. So if you like it, don't sit on your hands. Hit the keyboard and toss out a bid.


Also, this guy offers some good advice:-Ebay Item #2552211067 and this one offers free sniper software with every purchase - Ebay Item #2653035634
E ebayaddict00Member
Just so everyone knows, the auction where I found that anti-sniper notice.....
I actually decided to snipe it anyway to see what he would do about it, but within HIS rules.
Wink
I tossed out a low-ball bid right away, then sniped it (manually - as I didn't have an AS account then). I ended up winning the auction, and the seller never asked me about my last minute bid. I guess he put up the notice just to put off the one-bid-snipers. Roll Eyes

Good thing the item was something of interest to me anway. Big Grin

Tired and shagged out after a long squawk....
rickrickMember
quote:
Originally posted by eBay_Addict00:
I ended up winning the auction, and the seller never asked me about my last minute bid.


The seller might be all bark and no bite.

I wonder what the seller would do if a sniper placed only one bid (snipe) and the item sold for more money then the seller expected?

We must be talking about more then one seller on this topic. eBay_addict00 - If you have the time, I'm curious to see if this seller has gotten or left any negs regarding snipers. If you haven't seen this link before, this will let you bring up only negs and neutrals for someone: http://www.haus.org/cgi-bin/negs (credit goes to Rickdogg - no relation).

Or, you could also provide us with the seller's ID.
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E ebayaddict00Member
Sorry, I had a look through my feedbacks, but I couldn't find that one (maybe he didn't leave me feedback - I don't remember). Eek

It's too bad that the link to the auction ends after even a short period, but I guess to logistics to allow that would take up too much of eBay's computer memory. I know it takes up enough of my own memory, and mine trashes stuff shortly after it isn't needed anymore. Wink

It was only when I was reading the comments on anti-snipers that it jogged my memory about that particular incident. I wish I could tell you who it was. Frown

Tired and shagged out after a long squawk....
rickrickMember
This is the email I sent to ebay:

1) This appears in a seller's listing: "If I determine that a winning bidder has used sniping software, they will be placed on my blocked bidders list and will receive negative feedback." Is this a violation of ebay's rules?

2) Would a seller be in violation of ebay rules if they state that they will not complete the transaction if the high bidder placed their bid within the last 5 minutes of the auction?

This is ebay's response:

I can understand your frustration for a seller who is refusing to complete a transaction according to the auction terms. In order for me to take action on your report, please send me a copy of the actual email along with its full header where the seller refuses to sell the item that was properly won.


This is obviously a "standard" pre-written email from ebay, as it doesn't address either of my questions. I find it interesting that they say, "a seller who is refusing to complete a transaction according to the auction terms". In my previous quotes from ebay's agreement, "auction terms" and "conditions of sale" appeared.

I don't think anyone can say with "certainty" that a seller must complete a transaction with a sniper when the seller's terms has a restriction against sniping (i.e. bids within the last 5 minutes).

Like Steve said, "this is becoming like discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin." I'm also at that point. But, I think it prudent that should this question come up again, that we may want to advise the poster that there is some uncertainty until someone has something conclusive.
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S steveExpertSniper
Thanks, Rick, for taking the time and trouble to seek a resolution of our questions from eBay and for sharing the -- unresponsive -- outcome of your inquiry.

EBay has become like most huge bureaucracies (I should know, I worked for an even bigger one for more than 30 years). It simply does not have the time, the staff, or the inclination to respond to every communication directed to it. As a consequence, somebody has dreamed up "canned" responses that cover a wide range of keywords identified in correspondence. Incoming e-mail can be screened for these keywords and a reply generated, all unseen by human eyeballs. That the answer doesn't respond to the question is immaterial. Whoever devised the correspondence analysis system is well aware that more than half of the people who receive an unresponsive reply never bother to try again. How's that for cynicism? Customer service? Razz

I think that if we want to pursue this we'll have to come up with an actual instance where the seller refuses to honor the sale of an item because, for instance, the winning bid was submitted in the last 5 minutes of the auction. All other conditions of the transaction must be met, including timely payment and followup through the eBay grievance system. Would it mean doing the foxtrot on the head of a pin? Sure. Anybody wanna go for it? Big Grin
W warriornunMember
Also, any inquiries shouldn't necessarily refer to 'sniping' - as one can legitimately bid in the last 5 minutes without knowingly 'sniping'. The issue should be kept not to whether 'sniping' is okay or not...but, rather, whether a seller has the right to refuse to complete a transaction in which a bidder/potential buyer:

1) bids before auction's end (no brainer here)

2) makes timely payment and communication (duh!)

The fact that a bid was placed in the last 5 seconds, 5 minutes, or 5 hours is automatically a 'snipe' is an unfair and arbitrary judgment call...and it would be nice to know whose side eBay would fall on.

If they go to the side of the seller, what is to stop people from making all kinds of crazy conditions in their auctions? Of course that would be foolish, but...?!?

I do not recall who said it first, but I think that most of the whiner/sellers are "all bark, no (or little) bite" [paraphrased] and that, in most cases, snipers aren't going to run into much trouble. Afterall, the bottom line is that the seller wants to sell his widget...and he found a widget collector who paid, sniper or not.

WarriorNun

"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning"
rickrickMember
This is all I could find (based on minimal effort):
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3427648692&category=15730
a) They say it's legal.
b) Since I could only find one seller, this issue is probably academic.

(On the twisted side of life) The curious thing is that some sellers actually encourage sniping. They warn proxy bidders to bid more so as to block snipers. It never occurred to me that a seller would use snipers as a way to encourage bidding wars. Seems ironic.
S steveExpertSniper
I tried searching eBay titles with descriptions for "snipers" and came up with 3,960 "hits." Not all of them mentioned our favorite pastime, of course, but there were a lot of sellers including cautionary notes in their item descriptions like "Don't be outbid at the last moment by the 'snipers'. Post your highest bid and let eBay bid for you." I have absolutely no problem with that and I'm sure none of the rest of you do, either. I didn't take a lot of time but I'm sure there are some of our redneck friends numbered among those 3,960 items being sold as well. Perhaps a search for "snipers negative" would come up with some of those. Big Grin
rickrickMember
I used "five minute sniping" and got it down to 32. "Sniping software" - well forget it. But most of the hits look like people "selling" sniping software. I could only find that one example, and that message only appears on one of their open auctions and I didn't see it on any of their closed auctions. So, even with this seller, it still might be questionable.
S steveExpertSniper
I tried "sniper* beware" and got 800 or so, but almost all of them were charleybaby's. If you don't collect post cards, you don't have to worry aboout charleybaby. On the other hand, most of his wares start at $2.99 no reserve and go begging at that price, so it would be cheap to challenge him. Razz
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W warriornunMember
I found an auction that had a 'sniper warning' - but I have no objection to notes like this:

"Careful to not be outbid by last Minute bidders:

Are you losing bids in the last few seconds of the auction? I get these emails all the time, I missed the end of the auction, do you have another one? Read on! While sleeping comfortably in your bed some SNIPER comes along and pulls the winning bid right out from under you. How do you fight this? With expensive software? NO WAY! It's real easy.... eBay has a "Proxy Bidding System" - if you just bid the absolute maximum you are willing to pay for this item right from the start, the proxy bidding system will work for you! For example...if the bid is $2.00 and you feel it's worth $10.00 then you just bid $10.01 - the proxy system will automatically put a bid in for $2.25 and no one will ever know your max was $10.01. This really works! Try it on your next bid...or better yet; try it right now on this item.

*** REMEMBER this is a NR auction and if you wait till the last minute to bid and Ebay or Yahoo has some downtime you could lose an item that you wanted and I could lose an opportunity to receive a fair price for my item. SO BID EARLY!! THANK YOU FOR VIEWING MY AD AND HAPPY BIDDING!!!"

WarriorNun Cool

"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning"
S steveExpertSniper
I agree that it concerns snipers, but should it? There are all sorts of sellers on eBay using the "threat" of sniping to prompt proxy bidders to act fast and generously. That's OK if you don't mind being portrayed as the bogeyman, I suppose. But we have only come up with one or two sellers who actively promise to take punitive action against snipers who intrude on their auctions. One of these, charleybaby, only sells cheap post cards. Unless you're looking for such things his mouthings can be ignored. Besides, a check of his negative feedback record, both received and handed out by him, reveals that he has yet to post negative feedback because someone sniped one of his auctions. (Of course, this could just mean that snipers are too smart to want to bother with him. Or it could mean that charleybaby is bluffing.)

Anyhow, 70 posts on the topic -- it's been fun, and interesting, but should we all be so concerned? Razz
A amhMember
(remembering that the choice of law governing any particular contract will depend on various international law rules and eBay terms and that what follows does not constitute legal advice and may not be relied on) (whew!)

Loking at the apparent conflict between the eBay rules about failure to complete a transaction and those about including special terms - I think a "no snipers" term is valid and the seller will not be obliged to sell to a high bidder made in breach of such a term. On the other hand a USD500 term would not be valid (at least on low value items) because it would be in breach of eBay's "fee avoidance" rules.

How about that?
rickrickMember
quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
but how is the seller to know that it was a snipe bid?


"Last five minutes" would seem to do the trick. That's what this seller did:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3427648692&category=15730

Remember, the seller doesn't need to determine manual or automated snipe. They've defined "snipe" as "last five minutes".

Also, sellers can, and do, discriminate based on buyers' location (country) and payment method.
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