How Am I Outbid by an Earlier Bid?

Sorry you didn't get your item. Auctions are won by high bids, not good timing. And sniping can't save an auction from the highest bidder. Sniping does not "game" the system; it just reduces the incentives(aka bids) for overheated bidding.

His MAXIMUM bid, the one entered at 15.07:38, was at least $76.99, one increment above $76.54, the next lowest bid. His maximum might have been $500; we will never know. But at the point he entered it, it was one increment higher than the existing bid, so eBay displayed this and only this: The Sum of the Existing Bid + One Increment (an unpublished amount set by eBay) - and not a penny more. EBay never, ever shows more than "existing bid + one increment." And it will keep showing only that number. At the end of the auction, when AS entered your bid on your behalf, eBay searched its system and found out that "Him" had bid at least on increment higher than YOUR maximum, as entered by AS. Acting as his "proxy," eBay automatically entered a bid on his behalf, a bid which was - yawn - one increment higher than your maximum.

If this strikes you as unfair, it is because I'm not explaining it clearly. Investigate further, and you'll see it is a very fair system.

I don't know why his bid didn't show up on the post-auction bidders list. It may have been there earlier when he was still the leading bidder; maybe eBay posts a winner's winning bid and none of the lower bids on his/her behalf. Or there could be some other reason. The list doesn't really matter; the bottom line is that you were outbid at 15.07:38, but you had no way of knowing that.

AS is not a magic bullet or a "cheat." It's good to keep in mind that the main advantages of AS are the convenience and the fact that nobody knows that you are "in the action." Sniping results in fewer visible bids; fewer bids reflect less demand and therefore tend to keep prices down. If everybody sniped we'd have silent auctions and no bidding wars. That would be an improvement, I believe.

Tom

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Originally posted by Tom Kelly:

I don't know why his bid didn't show up on the post-auction bidders list. It may have been there earlier when he was still the leading bidder;

That's what I'm talking about. If he put in a bid at 15:07 that was the leading bid at the time, that bid should show and it should not be taken away.

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maybe eBay posts a winner's winning bid and none of the lower bids on his/her behalf.

How could that be? If that is the case, why would we be using Auction Sniper. We could accomplish the same thing on eBay.

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The list doesn't really matter; the bottom line is that you were outbid at 15.07:38

I disagree. The integrity of the bidding process demands that if this person entered a bid at 15:07, his bid ought to show up at 15:07, for the amount that it was at 15:07, and it ought to stay there. If he has a maximum bid that beats another bidder later, fine. But that doesn't mean his prior bid should be deleted. There is something deceitful about that. No one knows now if he had a prior bid in at 15:07 or not, or if he recieved some special treatment from eBay.

It is all very simple. His bid was already the high bid when your snipe came in, but the amount shown prior to your bid arriving was only the amount of the second place bid at THAT TIME plus one increment.

When your snipe came in at the last second, a larger amount of his proxy bid was revealed, enough to equal YOUR bid plus one increment. As was stated, his maximum bid amount may have been much higher. The amount shown is only the amount of the second highest bid plus one increment.

All of us had to understand this when we first started on eBay. This same question is asked here quite frequently by folks new to eBay. You will want to read up on proxy bidding, using eBay's help section. It is very important that you understand how proxy bidding works, if you are to use eBay and also if you snipe here. Good luck.

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Originally posted by TomBk:
If he put in a bid at 15:07 that was the leading bid at the time, that bid should show and it should not be taken away.

Depends on what you mean by "that bid." Are you saying that he was NOT shown as the leading bidder at that point? Or are you just talking about what the list says NOW?

I been doin' some research, and here's what I've come up with.

EBay uses a PROXY BIDDING system, and that seems to be the rub here. In Proxy Bidding, when you enter a bid that makes you top dog by a wide margin, the auctioneer does NOT enter your maximum bid on the bid list or anywhere else in public view. EBay posts ONLY the amount needed to keep you one increment ahead of the next highest bid. It keeps doing that until your maximum is insufficient to make an amount equalling the next maximum plus increment, in which case someone else takes the lead, or, if you can maintain that lead, you win the auction. (As did your adversary.)

Thus it's possible for me to bid $255 on an item and win it for 43 cents. And no one will ever know that I was dumb enough to bid such a ridiculous amount for a empanada with the face of Hugo Chavez's virgin mother! With one bid, I could lead an auction until the very end, and then get beaten by someone who bid 50 cents more at the last minute. And if some drunk wanted to buy a '91 Chevy for $45,000, he couldn't do it in an eBay auction, not unless some other drunk was willing to offer $44,250.

EBay doesn't talk about how incremental amounts are established, but they seem to be a percentage of the bid amount at any given time. Increments become wider as the bids go higher.

With proxy bidding, it's entirely possible for you to bid MORE than the high bid shown in the listing, and still not be the high bidder! For example, if the bid is $6 and the increment is 30 cents, a bid for $6.15 will be rejected, duh. (Cries of "Wait wait! I bid more than the leading bidder!" will fall on deaf ears.) Of course, you'll be told why the bid is rejected and given another chance to bid. If you bid $6.30, that bid will appear on the screen as the leading bid.

(Al Gore and I have something in common: I have lost auctions and been the highest bidder. It happens.)

If instead you bid $8.23, the bid that appears on the screen will still be $6.30. But keep in mind that you're still good up to $8 or thereabouts, depending on the increment shift and the next lowest bid.

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maybe eBay posts a winner's winning bid and none of the lower bids on his/her behalf.

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How could that be?

Exactly why couldn't couldn't that be? In fact, that's exactly what happens, if you define "winning bid" as "what it took to win the auction." See more below.

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If that is the case, why would we be using Auction Sniper. We could accomplish the same thing on eBay.

Hmmm. I know why I I use AS, but what sort of advantage do YOU think Auction Sniper gives us? (It's interesting how many people think AS is either a magic bullet / dirty lowdown trick or a waste of money. Both groups are wrong.)

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The list doesn't really matter; the bottom line is that you were outbid at 15.07:38

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The integrity of the bidding process demands that if this person entered a bid at 15:07, his bid ought to show up at 15:07, for the amount that it was at 15:07, and it ought to stay there.

That's not what's demanded by the integrity of the PROXY bidding process. Proxy bidding is incremental. If the high bid on an item is $4, and I bid $4000, you will still see a bid of something like $4.30 on your screen. You will NEVER see the $4000, because it never takes effect. I'm not an expert on auction theory, but that's fine with me. Among other problems, you'd have people screaming bloody murder because their keyboard went on the the fritz and entered "000" by accident. I'm sure there's much more potential for shilling and other sorts of abuse with that system than with proxy bidding.

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If he has a maximum bid that beats another bidder later, fine. But that doesn't mean his prior bid should be deleted.

Deleted? What "prior bid" do you think was deleted? The bid that appeared on the screen when he first made his bid was eBay's PROXY bid on his behalf. EBay - not the bidder - kept entering higher and higher proxy bids for him until he won the auction.

When AS entered your bid, it wasn't enough to exceed his maximum by the increment. So eBay entered yet another proxy bid on his behalf. That put him over the top.

As to the list:

After the auction, his WINNING bid amount appeared on the list. His maximum bid doesn't appear because it never came into effect. Nor do the proxy bids that were entered on his behalf. There's no good reason to list all the proxy bids that might have been entered during the auction, whether they're his or anyone else's.

And you also see the highest bids of the other bidders. One bidder may have entered several maximums - and they will appear on the list, with a different bidder's name next to them. But no interim proxy bids appear on the list. Only maximums and the winning bid.

Maybe I'm the one who's missing something here. Please enlighten me if I am.

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There is something deceitful about that. No one knows now if he had a prior bid in at 15:07 or not, or if he recieved some special treatment from eBay.

Hey, d'ya tink somebody coulda' been messin' widda servers, eh?

I'm sorry, but c'mon. EBay has its problems - retaliatory feedback, for one example - but do you think they could afford to screw with the auctions like that? Do you know what that would do to "shareholder value"?

Tom

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Originally posted by Chatter:
It is all very simple. His bid was already the high bid when your snipe came in, but the amount shown prior to your bid arriving was only the amount of the second place bid at THAT TIME plus one increment.

Fine. Why doesn't that bid show up then? That is my question. I want to see his bid at 1507. Then I want to see my snipe beat it, then I want to see his new higher bid beat mine. If no one can see a bid put in by him at 1507, how does anyone know he really put one in?

Unless eBay is running a snipe system, the bid he "supposedly" made at 1507 ought to be shown. Otherwise, someone has to explain why it's not there. I have filed a complaint with eBay about this.

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Fine. Why doesn't that bid show up then? That is my question. I want to see his bid at 1507. Then I want to see my snipe beat it, then I want to see his new higher bid beat mine. If no one can see a bid put in by him at 1507, how does anyone know he really put one in?

Unless eBay is running a snipe system, the bid he "supposedly" made at 1507 ought to be shown. Otherwise, someone has to explain why it's not there. I have filed a complaint with eBay about this.

OK, now I get it. You are under the mistaken impression that eBay lists separate incremental amounts generated from one proxy bid. This is incorrect.

When you or anyone bids, that particular bid is registered only ONE TIME in the bid history. It lists only one bid, and that bid shows seconds after that bid is made. It appears an hour later, a day later, when the auction is about to end, and after it does end. Even though someone else comes along and bids, that single bid that you made will still show up as one bid, even after the other person's bid caused more of your amount to be needed. The time/date of your bid does not change in the bid history, only the amount.

For example, an auction starts with an opening price at $25. Bidder A comes along and bids $47.56 on Tuesday, 6/5 at 11:45. His bid does NOT show as $47.56. Rather, it shows as $25, because that is the opening bid amount, and it shows as being made on Tuesday at 11:45. We can look at the auction after Tuesday at 11:45 and see that A is winning at $25, and yet we have no way of knowing what amount A actually bid. We see:

A 6/5 11:45 $25.00

Then bidder B comes along on Thursday at 23:33 and bids $35. This bid, naturally, will not be enough to make B the high bidder, but it will use up more of A's proxy bid. Once B bids, A's amount will change, but not the date and time of his single bid. The auction bid history now reads:

A 6/5 11:45 $36.00
B 6/7 23:33 $35.00

Notice that the date and time are still the same from A's earlier bid; it is only the amount that has changed, because B's bid has caused more of A's proxy bid amount to be used. B's bid of $35, plus the $1 increment needed at that level, shows A's bid now as $36.00.

Bidder C is a deep-pockets kind of guy and bids $101.67 early Friday morning. The bid history will then read:

C 6/8 00:50 $48.56
A 6/5 11:45 $47.56
B 6/7 23:33 $35.00

Again, we do not realize that C has bid over $100; we simply know that he has bid at least one increment above A. But notice that A's amount has now changed in the bid history because C's bid caused all of A's proxy to be used. At this point we know the full amounts of A and B's bids, because they have been outbid. But we do not know what C has bid; we simply know that it is more than A. This is what eBay means by the term proxy bid.

Bidder D is a sniper. Of course, she thinks that she is slick and will win the auction because she sets a snipe at $77.34. She is confident that her snipe, which is well above the current high hid, will win. She has even bid in an odd amount, just to make sure. As a sniper, she could snipe manually herself during the closing minute of the auction, but she has instead elected to use Auction Sniper for many reasons, not the least of which is that she will be asleep when the auction ends. Her snipe is set to fire Monday 6/11 at 02:22, seconds before the auction ends in the middle of the night. Moments before, we still see the same bid history:

C 6/8 00:50 $48.56
A 6/5 11:45 $47.56
B 6/7 23:33 $35.00

D's snipe fires as planned and the auction ends. When D wakes up, confident of her win, she will instead be greeted by this unpleasant picture:

C 6/8 00:50 $78.34
D 6/11 02:22 $77.34
A 6/5 11:45 $47.56
B 6/7 23:33 $35.00

Like the real-life scenario in this thread, the winning bid was placed days before, but the amount has changed once again to reflect the latest bid. Just prior to D's snipe, C was shown winning at $48.56. After D's snipe, C won at $78.34, and the bid was still his single bid from five days earlier. There was no snafu, nothing dastardly going on here, no "preferential treatment by eBay." This was the system functioning properly, at it was designed to do, and as it has done for the last decade, which is that the highest bid wins, no matter when it was placed. AS has many advantages, but it cannot change that simple reality.

Had, A, B, or C come back later in the auction and entered separate bids for higher amounts, that would have been different. Their new bids of higher amounts would have registered separately. (This is called nibbling, and it is something that we snipers seek to avoid, because it only drives the price up.) But as it was, their single bid amounts simply changed as other bids came in.

Hopefully, this explanation and example demonstrate not only how the eBay proxy bid system works, but also the need to read up on proxy bidding at eBay help. Doing so is much more helpful than becoming frustrated here, simply because one does not have enough experience on eBay to fully comprehend. We all went through the initial period of not understanding proxy bidding, but soon we got the hang of it, and soon after that, we became snipers, and then VERY soon after that, we became AS snipers!

BTW, these are the bid increment amounts, which increase as the auction price goes higher:

Here is how increments are determined:

Current Price Bid Increment

$ 0.01 - $ 0.99 $ 0.05

$ 1.00 - $ 4.99 $ 0.25

$ 5.00 - $ 24.99 $ 0.50

$ 25.00 - $ 99.99 $ 1.00

$ 100.00 - $ 249.99 $ 2.50

$ 250.00 - $ 499.99 $ 5.00

$ 500.00 - $ 999.99 $ 10.00

$ 1000.00 - $ 2499.99 $ 25.00

$ 2500.00 - $ 4999.99 $ 50.00

$ 5000.00 and up $ 100.00

Chatter's explanation is exactly correct and much better than mine. Obviously, I didn't know that the increments were published, not that it makes any difference re the issue. Good job.

Tom

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Good job.

Hear! Hear!

Nice explanation, Chatter! You'll need to save that one for future proxy bidding questions. I hope OP "gets it" now.

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Posted by Chatter: You are under the impression that eBay lists separate incremental amounts generated from one proxy bid.

Yes.

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When you or anyone bids, that particular bid is registered only ONE TIME in the bid history. Even though someone else comes along and bids, that single bid that you made will still show up as one bid, even after the other person's bid caused more of your amount to be needed. The time/date of your bid does not change in the bid history, only the amount.

Ah, I see.

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Had, A, B, or C come back later in the auction and entered separate bids for higher amounts, that would have been different. Their new bids of higher amounts would have registered separately.

I see the difference now.

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Hopefully, this explanation... demonstrates...the need to read up on proxy bidding at eBay help.

If I recall correctly I did read that and I found it did not address my question.

I also contacted eBay at least twice about this issue prior to this incident. Each time they sent me a bunch of unhelpful guidelines which I think they copied from their unclear help files. All they had to was explain what you did. I found that very easy to understand. Thanks.

eBay's workings are easy when you know. Likewise the feedback system etc etc. And it can be very frustrating when you're caught out.

Proxy Bidding Explained

R2

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Originally posted by region2:
Proxy Bidding ExplainedR2

Hi region,
That link didn't address my question either. That's the kind of stuff eBay was sending me. But I understand now anyway. Cheers.